Sean Riley:
You are listening to unPACKed with PMMI where we share the latest packaging and processing industry insights, research, and innovations to help you advance your business. We're very please today to have Tetra Pack's US and Canadian communications manager, Angela Peterson, and the Compass Group USA's director of sustainability, Marisa Golison on the podcast. Marisa and Angela, welcome to the pod.
Angela Peterson:
Hi, thank you for having us.
Sean Riley:
I guess before we get too deeply into sustainability and the different things that we're going to talk about around sustainability, I guess if each of you could just give us a little elevator background on exactly what it is you do. So I guess we could start first with Angela.
Angela Peterson:
Okay. I work for Tetra Pack and some of you may be saying like, "Who's Tetra Pack?" We are one of the world's largest food packaging and processing company, but we are probably best known for our carton packages. If you open your pantry today and pull out a container of chicken broth or a dairy alternative milk, turn over the package, you'll probably see our logo there. Anytime you see those carton packages in the grocery store, on the shelf, that's us. We do a septic shelf stable packaging, as well as chilled carton packaging, and then again, processing. In my role, I do a variety of things within communications, but one of my favorite parts of the job is working with different customers to help them communicate their sustainability messaging in a way that makes sense to consumers and is also something that helps them really communicate what they're doing, their sustainability goals, the work that they're doing behind the scenes. We work with everyone from startups and entrepreneurs to some of the world's largest most well known food and beverage providers.
Sean Riley:
Yeah. It's funny that we're in the packaging and processing world. You hear Tetra Pack and we all know that it's a humongous company that's worldwide known and stuff like, but you do realize that outside of our little world, which isn't so little, Tetra Pack isn't, like you said, a household name, even though it's in all of our households. That's an interesting way to put it. I'm thinking when you say Tetra Pack, like, oh my gosh, this is Tetra Pack. We have to have them on the pod. They're huge. Marisa, I guess if you could just give us a little background on what it is you do.
Marissa Golison:
I'm currently the director of sustainability for Compass Group USA. Compass Group is the world's largest food service company, providing millions of meals a day for hospitals, universities, school districts, business units, around the US and globally. Being in the north American office, we are just looking at the US, which makes up about 70% of Compass Group total. Really where my efforts came into play with talking about messaging on packs since most of the food service industry doesn't have that consumer facing messaging that we're talking about here and like what you would see on Tetra Pack packaging, came from my experience over the last three years with Consumer Brands Association. I started at Consumer Brands in 2019 and worked my way up from manager of packaging sustainability, to director of packaging sustainability, where worked on and led multiple efforts around packaging sustainability and recycling.
Marissa Golison:
That's actually where I met Angela and where I've done a handful of projects with Tetra Pack over the years. One of the most recent ones and still ongoing since my departure at Consumer Brands is work stream to engage with the Federal Trade Commission on their green guides. Some of the foundational elements for the legal systems around how we message on pack. That's where my relevancy comes to this conversation.
Sean Riley:
Awesome. You're exactly the two people that I need for this conversation because I've been a reporter and an editor and covered the packaging industry for too long. I'm not going to say how long, and I remember when sustainability became this buzzword years ago and it's grown into this kind of overarching idea that everybody wants to be more sustainable and people are going more towards sustainability. Consumers, particularly the younger generation, the millennials have been known and have been identified as it being, sustainability, being a main driver in their buying habits. What we don't get to as much is exactly how it plays out in a store or how it plays out with the companies that are packaging the products to make sure that the stuff they are putting in a store is going to be what is going to draw the attention of people looking for these type of sustainability initiatives on packages. Kind of the things that drive that final decision, so that's where this conversation is going to be really helpful. I guess just from a real sort of top view, how do you guys define product sustainability messaging?
Angela Peterson:
I think for me, product sustainability messaging is a brand's way to really educate consumers about what they have been doing related to sustainability that's meaningful to the consumer. I think a lot of companies today are focused on what they can do to minimize their impact and create a more sustainable future, but it's also something that consumers are looking for. It's really kind of bringing that together of what are the brand's goals? What are they working towards? What matters to their consumers? How do they marry the two in a way that can fit on pack? It's really about boiling down a lot of really complex subjects into a few words that really convey to the consumer what you're doing and why it should matter to them.
Marissa Golison:
Just to add on, from the brand's perspective and then more from the policy and legal perspective, what defines product sustainability messaging is really the Federal Trade Commission's legal guidelines, the environmental marketing claims that were last updated in 2012. While brands have all of these different areas that they want to engage in and talk to their customers about, there is a framework that helps brands understand what they legally can and can not say on pack. It is quite complex trying to boil down some of these key areas, whether it is understanding recyclability or water reduction or carbon emissions, how those are calculated go into how you can message it.
Marissa Golison:
It's super complicated trying to get it from those calculations to something that you can fit on pack and make it super simple for the consumer to understand because we're working with these massively complex systems and measuring water from agriculture to packaging, to processing all the way down to the consumer level. It's really hard to find that consistency from brand to brand. That's where these legal guidelines come into play to provide some guardrails on what we can in and can not say on pack. I would say emphasis on the fact that it is a guideline. It's not preemptive of what states say in terms of how you can message on pack, but is really the gold standard of what brands point to and say, "We are putting messaging on pack that aligns with the Federal Trade Commission's green guidelines."
Sean Riley:
That's to me is something that I don't know maybe everybody listening knows this, but I don't know that I ever really put that much thought beyond that there is the Federal Trade Commission is involved in this. It isn't just something that you can put on package and say, "We save X amount of water." Or, "We're saving water." And stuff like that, that'd be a driver for someone to buy something. But like you said, there's guidelines for this and there's rules. There's legalities that are in place to make sure that people aren't saying things that are untrue and kind of misdirecting the consumer. I guess what are the, because again a package, some packages are so small and there's so much limited space in terms of design and attracting the eye of the consumer and still getting this information on there. I guess how do consumers respond to these product sustainability claims? What are things that can catch the eye or can bring in consumers to make these purchases?
Angela Peterson:
What I typically encourage our brands to do is to first really understand what matters to their consumers. What is the person in the grocery store going to look at on the package? You have to understand what they want. I recommend watching what people are saying about you on Twitter, checking with the team that reviews your consumer inbox, maybe on your website, that contact us, see what people are asking about, see what matters to them and find out what's unclear. I think that really is kind of the first step in understanding what you need to communicate first. Then beyond that, I think a great way to communicate about sustainability is to look at those certifications that are available to you, whether it's FSC, [inaudible 00:10:12], there's a variety of different certifications, those little on pack labels that are super familiar and common.
Angela Peterson:
That's a really quick way for people to just glance at your package. They recognize, say, the FSC logo, the Forest Stewardship logo, and they say, "Oh, okay. The paper used for this packaging was responsibly sourced." They don't have to who read it, they see it, a picture is worth a thousand words. I always encourage brands to look out what certifications they qualify for, and usually those come through a supplier, whether it's your packaging supplier or someone else. The certifications are out there and are a great first step for communicating on pack.
Sean Riley:
Interesting. I guess the kind of follow up I have, which you may have already answered is, are consumers aware of these and understanding of these logos and little symbols that are coming to represent the sustainable products or recyclable products, or is it something that they still need education on?
Angela Peterson:
I would say both from my perspective and our consumers that purchase brands that come in our packaging. I think FSC is very well known if you're looking for it. That's something that's out there. It's been around a long time. It's on a lot of different products. I think logos like that are pretty well recognized. Then, I think a lot of brands now with social media in the last several years, they're using their social media channels to really educate their consumers about those certifications on their channels. They're able to put additional information out there. I think that's really helping the people who are very values driven consumers. They are out there looking for that information. I think today just everybody has a computer in their pocket, essentially.
Angela Peterson:
If you're sitting there, the package is your brand's billboard in somebody's hand. Whether they're sitting in a waiting room, just reading their package or sitting at the breakfast table, that package is there in front of them. Sometimes people see the claim and they're like, "Oh, I wonder what that means." And they look into it. I think the certifications are becoming more well known among consumers, just simply because there's so much access to information these days. Then throughout the pandemic, we've also seen that people have really taken an interest in the environment and how they're packaging impacts the environment. I think there's even kind of a renewed interest in really understanding the package and you go to the package to learn about it, and then that drives you to really dive deeper into what does this all mean.
Sean Riley:
Fair enough. Now, I hear that. Then I'm guessing, are there additional things that would trigger consideration from consumers and I guess the counter to that, are there things that you shouldn't put on there that people are going to avoid because of it? You may be doing everything right, but you're putting something on the package that is turning people away.
Angela Peterson:
Yeah. I would say first we found through research that the majority of people look at the package and they want to know is this recyclable. They go to the package to see if there is that recycling logo on the package. I would say that's probably one of the most universally well known logos on package out there. I think consumers are looking for that one. Recycling, while a very complex infrastructure, it's something that most consumers are familiar with. Two, it gives them the ability to be action oriented and it helps them feel like they are really making a difference. We have a group that we work with that's done some research and they found that people want to do more to help the planet, but only about a quarter of people feel like they're doing all they can.
Angela Peterson:
I think that recycling logo gives people a feeling of empowerment. They can look at the logo and they know what to do with the package when they're done so that they can feel good essentially. I think we also see a lot of consumers now wanting to understand their carbon footprint. Now, we are using on certain packages that contain plant based plastics the carbon trust logo to really communicate by choosing this package, you are making a wise decision in reducing your carbon footprint. I think people are looking for that and really just a variety of different messages talk to people. I think, again, it goes back to really understanding your consumers, what matters to them and communicating that.
Angela Peterson:
What I typically recommend brands avoid is anything that's not substantiated. Sustainability claims are taken very seriously. That's why the FTCs green guides exist because they are real marketing claims. You want to make sure that anything you share on pack can be proven. You want to have the LCAs available, whether that's just within your organization or on your website, definitely not on your package, but you want to make sure that information is there so that if you are asked a question about something, you can provide the factual data to support anything on pack. I also recommend staying away from claims that are saying 100% really of anything. 100% recyclable, 100% renewable, again unless you are able to validate that and really account for that statement into totality. We are seeing, because sustainability is becoming something that's more top of mind, we are seeing more news about companies that are being accused of green washing. I don't think it's malicious. I think it's just sometimes there's not that double check of claims to make sure that they are able to substantiate it 100%.
Marissa Golison:
I can jump in here a little bit answering the what not to put on pack. I think Angela did an amazing job at putting down that framework because I 100% agree with everything she said. I think one of the biggest pieces to note about the FTC green guides is that it has not updated since 2012, which is why the commission is looking at how can they update the guidelines so that it is consistent with the market that we're in today. If you think about sustainability in 2012, we were in a completely different place than we are now. Consumers want information about a wider set of environmental issues and were talked about in 2012. The unfortunate truth is brands move at a quicker rate. We want to adapt to the marketplace, but some of those legal issues that we're seeing with green washing and unsubstantiated claims is that we don't have those legal guide lines in place right now to talk about this wider set of environmental issues that consumers want to see in the marketplace right now, and that align with the brand's commitments that are being put out.
Marissa Golison:
Angela was talking about recycling. We like to talk about recycling a lot. I think it's a really fun issue because it does touch every consumer's lives. We like to say on the hill is recycling as a bipartisan issue. It's an issue that everyone can get behind. Nobody likes trash. However, it is massively complex in how you message it to consumers. The recycling logo is, while one of the most important to make sure that we facilitate sustainable materials management, it also is extremely vague and doesn't provide the consumers with the type of information to really understand how to recycle properly. There's different certifications out there, like the how to recycle label that are trying to get at that to provide more information on whether or not does your cardboard need to be cleaned, can you recycle a pizza box, your film plastics and your plastic bags, they're recyclable but you have to drop them off at the grocery store.
Marissa Golison:
It's not as simple as can I just put this in my bin. Then we're also seeing legislation like what was passed in California this year, SB-343 prohibiting the use of the chasing arrow symbol on pack while we have a handful of other states that mandate that you use that logo. Consistency is just so important to the way that we message to consumers, because right now whether you're in California, Alabama, Oklahoma, I mean, even in Washington D.C., what you can recycle in Arlington is different than what you can recycle in D.C. proper in your home versus your building versus your office.
Marissa Golison:
The way that it is communicated is just so vastly different, whether it's the municipality, the brand, and I'd say one of the greatest hopes that we could get out of an updated green guides is a federal view of how we talk about these issues to consumers. Because I'd say that lack of consistency is the biggest challenge that we have on any of these issues that we're talking about. It is the greatest chance that we have in educating the broader populations on these issues that we're working on, on a day to day basis.
