Lisa Sun, Founder and CEO, GRAVITAS, discusses how personal stories shape leadership journeys. She dives into the power of immigrant experiences, the role of self-confidence in achieving success, and her groundbreaking "superpower methodology." From identifying limiting beliefs to redefining confidence and ambition, Lisa shares actionable insights for embracing your unique strengths and living authentically.
Becca Welsby: So Lisa, do you think being the daughter of Taiwanese immigrants played a large role in the development of your sense of confidence and purpose?
Lisa Sun: I would say one of my big insights about life is your life story is your leadership story. And I think when you step back, it's not necessarily just about my Taiwanese immigrants. I think all of us have incredibly formative experiences, whether they had positive or tougher childhoods. And I think what I gained from my childhood was immigrants, they believe in something before they can see it. If you asked me to pick up and move to a place where the language was not my first language, where I knew very few people, it was an entire cultural shift, I would tell you I wouldn't be able to do it. And I think my parents had a vision for what was possible in their lives and were courageous enough to take that risk. So certainly being able to see what it takes to create something from nothing is formative to my entire being. I'm not sure I would make the same type of choices or risks because I like my creature comforts too much. But I think what they taught me was resourcefulness, persistence, grit. So I think almost every immigrant probably has a sense of possibility and creation, whether or not they're from Taiwan or any other country. So I would say that's formative, but from an upbringing and a leadership standpoint.
I think the other part though is, and this is probably why I've been in a lot of therapy, is there's also a lot of drawbacks to that upbringing. So being Asian American a lot of times, especially when I was growing up in the '80s and '90s, it was very much about assimilate, fit in. And I think every culture has a different sense of being, but at least for me being Taiwanese American, it was about you were balancing standing out and fitting in and you'll never really be able to fit in, especially in the '80s and '90s, and you're always going to stand out a little bit. And I think that tension for my parents was, let's use achievement, right? Going to the right school, getting the right career, use external metrics to validate that we made the right choice to leave our families behind.
And so that second part is actually something that I've been fighting my whole life, and it's more about how do you see yourself in a positive light, even outside of external validation, right? I always say I was raised by a tiger mom, which was phenomenal, right? I've accomplished so many things in my life because of the way in which she framed up achievement as an important part of my identity. But at the same time counteracting that and saying, "Okay, if I don't get that particular job, if I don't have that material possession, I am still a valuable contributor in life." And so that is one place where my parents and I've gone through a lot of therapy, had a lot of conversations, and as an entrepreneur, I'm really cash poor all the time. So I've stripped away a lot of the sense for external validation, being a driver of why I wake up in the morning, why I do what I do, my sense of self, my happiness.
Becca Welsby: It is just so incredibly brave what your parents did, indisputably brave. I think of it as also something that they've taught you is that if you're in a situation you don't like, you have the power to change your circumstances, and that's pretty incredible too.
Lisa Sun: Yeah, and I would say that directly correlated. I know we're going to talk about the superpower methodology, but one of the eight superpowers that we uncovered in our quantitative research is called creating. And this is the ability to create something from nothing, envision possibilities in the future.
And in our data set, we found that people who were first- or second-generation immigrants tended to have a higher frequency of this particular superpower in their confident language. And I think that's just because you've seen what it's like to live with very little and you're able to, to your point, change your circumstances, really believe in something different going forward.
Becca Welsby: Can you talk a little bit more about those eight superpowers? I was fortunate enough to be at the brunch last week at Pack Expo, and the energy in the room was so amazing. I heard so many conversations, especially among the women, and I was at our booth, and one of my male coworkers, he was like, "You need to channel your inner Lisa Sun right now." It was just so impactful, I think to so many people.
Lisa Sun: First of all, that's the highest compliment I could receive. Let me be clear. I make a lot of mistakes, so let's not hold me on a pedestal. But what our entire methodology is built on is really three pillars. The first is we're born fully self-confident. Ask any five-year-old what they're best at in the world, and they'll tell you right away, "I'm the best at soccer. I'm the best at hugs, I'm the best at everything." And at some point in our adolescence, and we've identified between the ages of eight and 12, we develop an inner critic. We start to doubt ourselves. And in our work, we identified six forces that drive insecurity and fear in our lives. And the first part of our methodology to self-assurance is you really have to be able to diagnose which of these six forces are affecting you, have affected you over time because you can't solve it until you know what's holding you back.
And so I just shared with you one of the things that held me back because I was raised by a tiger mom, satisfaction conundrums, tying your self-worth to external markers of validation and success. And so that's the first part of our methodology, which is you really have to understand what are the limiting beliefs in your mind.
The second part that we really love is you have to make a choice to break out of them. And you have to change how you see yourself. Because what I think is so important is if you look up the word confidence in the dictionary, it has nothing to do with bravado or swagger or behavior. It's an understanding and appreciation of your own abilities. It's a mindset before it becomes a behavior.
So I think that second part is really important, which is I can make a choice to do something about this now that I know what's holding me back. And it starts with how I view myself before anyone else sees me. I think so much of confidence has been described as a behavior, speak up, be assertive. And really 90% of the battle in terms of authentic confidence is do you value yourself as much as you want to be valued, as much as you want to be seen, you can't receive the compliment until you've paid it to yourself first.
Lisa Sun: And then the third part is what you were referring to as our eight superpowers. Part of having a strong mindset is being able to pinpoint what is in a self-affirming inventory of my talents and strengths. So if I put you on the spot, like a five-year-old, and said, "What are you best at in the world, Becca?" Would you be able to tell me on the spot? And so we developed through quantitative research, these eight superpowers, most of us have two or three. My mom has all eight. It's not like Pokémon—you don’t need all eight. I have four and a half of them. But it becomes a vocabulary through which you can articulate and advocate your value not only to yourself but now to others.
And so I’m happy to walk you through those eight, but I think if you didn’t know our work, you would just take the quiz and you're like, "Okay, that was interesting. That’s a nice personality test." And I always tell people, "Our quiz is not a personality test. It is a self-affirming inventory of how you see yourself and how you want to be seen and where you want to grow. So if there are superpowers you don’t have, now you control the journey around it." Hopefully, that gives you some context and I’m happy to dive into the eight, but that’s really the overall thinking.
Becca Welsby: I went to a speaker last night and it’s something she said that really resonated with things I’ve heard you say. And she was saying, "We really need to redefine ambition because ambition is wanting to achieve something." So you have to choose something that you want to achieve, and it doesn’t have to be being great at your job. It can be, I want to work on patience. Define those superpowers and then decide which ones you want to work on or which ones you want to cultivate or just be aware of.
Lisa Sun: Also, even just redefining the societal definition of confidence, because I think when we simplify confidence to extraversion and charisma, we actually underplay what it really is and we ask people to fake it to make it. So I think if you take the whole idea of confidence and you say, "Actually, it’s about an appreciation of our own abilities and a recognition and understanding of how our talents make the world a better place," I think it gives everyone the permission to have it. So I love redefining ambition. I love really ultimately redefining the idea of confidence so that everyone has a route to it.
The eight superpowers, these are developed through our quantitative data set. The first two that I often talk about are leading and performing. Leading: I’m in charge, I set direction, I inspire followership. And performing: which is what I’m doing for you now—extraversion, charisma, speaking up, loving being on stage, loving the energy exchange between two people. If you think about how much ink has been spilled about the topic of confidence, they focus solely on leading and performing. "Okay, I’m in command and I speak up." They represent less than 15% of our data set. So that means 85% of us have actually not been seen or valued when it comes to confidence.
The next two are achieving and knowing.
Becca Welsby: And is that people in general or women specifically?
Lisa Sun: So that’s women in our data set. So I should be clear, it was a data set of women that we started with. And actually, I love that you asked that question, Becca. So before I get into the next six, Kelly Shue at Yale School of Management looked at 30,000 employee records, and she identified that women were consistently rated the highest on actual results and achievement and performance, but the lowest on promotion potential. And men were the reverse. They were very promotable, but they didn’t do any work. And when she double-clicked on promotion potential, it was defined as extraversion, bravado, and swagger. She said there was no direct correlation between promotion potential and actual results and performance and management ability. She said 40% of the pay gap related to promotability is actually a very subjective and biased scorecard that was framed by a single view of leadership.
The next two, which women do really well at, are achieving and knowing. So I get things done. I have a performance mindset. I’m like an athlete. If I fail, I try again. And then knowing, which is I’m smart, I’ve done all my homework. The process is well outlined. You want to build IKEA furniture with someone who has knowing because they’re just so smart and they’ve done all the detailed thinking. The best example of these two superpowers are the three Black women in the movie Hidden Figures, because you can imagine they weren’t leading and performing. By the way, if you led and performed all day, nothing would get done. But how do three Black women have the confidence, the gravitas to be at NASA in the '60s and '70s? Because they were the smartest computers to do all the calculations to send a man into space.
The next two are giving and believing. So I’m empathetic. I care about others. I value relationships. And believing, which is optimism, seeing the best in everyone in every situation, feeling like you can let go if things weren’t meant to be. The best example of this in popular culture is Ted Lasso because he actually says in season one, "I’ve been underestimated my whole life because I’m not a commander coach. I don’t order people around. I don’t lead in front." He said, "I’m not here to win or lose. I’m here to get the best out of everyone, to make everyone the best versions of themselves." And everyone sees that by season three, the big belief poster and all of that, that his optimism, that rational optimism powers them to success.
And then the last two of the eight are creating—we talked about that earlier—that’s my number one. I can see things before other people do. I can will ideas into existence. And self-sustaining, which is one of the hardest, and I’m going to come back to the comment your colleague made at your booth. Self-sustaining is, I like myself. I don’t need to impress you. External validation is nice, but it doesn’t define me. And I deal well with criticism without spiraling, and I know how to ask for a raise or ask for a favor even if someone says no. And that eighth one is one of those ones that’s actually quite silent. It is a very internal one. It’s how you see yourself. And my book is actually a whole exercise in self-sustaining. Do you value yourself? Do you like yourself? Do you feel like you have nothing to prove to others?
But together, the eight changed the way we think about this idea of "be more confident." Because I always say to people, if someone says to you, "Be more confident," you should say, "Which of these eight? Do you want me to be more performing and speak up? I can do that. Do you want me to be more self-sustaining and not spiral when bad things happen? Do you want me to be more achieving and get things done?" We have to change that language. I think there’s a lot of bias. I don’t hold us accountable for the scorecard and the metrics not being created to see us and to value the unique things we bring to the table. I truly believe there’s so much systemic change that needs to happen. At the same time, we do ourselves a favor when we start to advocate for ourselves in a way that’s incredibly positive.
Becca Welsby: Yeah, for sure. If you could give your younger self one piece of advice, what do you think it would be?
Lisa Sun: I always get asked this question, and I always say, "I think the reverse is better." I look to advice from my nine-year-old self. I think my nine-year-old self was the best version of me. She wanted to be President of the United States, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and frankly, I could still be one of those. She was possibly the most interesting and boldest version of me. So I often look to get advice from my nine-year-old self.What I would probably do is go back to my 25- and 35-year-old self as I was climbing the corporate ladder, being incredibly hard on myself, feeling like I was never good enough, and I probably would go back in the DeLorean, Back To The Future style, and give myself my own book. I wrote the book in part for 25-year-old, 35-year-old Lisa, 41-year-old Lisa during the pandemic—I wrote the book for myself in my young to midlife adult years. But my younger self, my nine-year-old self, she was amazing. You can see we all keep a photo on our desk of our younger selves. Pick somebody from your younger years, keep it on your phone, keep it on your desk, who you would want to take advice from your own past.
Becca Welsby: I actually took your advice. I found my picture. It’s a picture of me, I’m like four or five years old and I’m on a beach up in Manistee, Michigan. It’s backlit, and I’m standing in the waves just doing a power pose, and I’m like, "That right there is the girl I wish came to the forefront a little more."
Lisa Sun: Reminders are powerful, so printing it out or keeping it on your phone, every once in a while you’ll be like, "Oh, I have to have this difficult meeting." Or "I have to do this thing I don’t want to do in my personal life." And I think just looking at that photo emboldens you. I really do keep all these photos. My mom just sent me a new one, which I think is adorable. Once in a while, she’ll just send me a photo from when I was a kid. I’m like, "I love it." She knows what’s up, what’s going on.
Becca Welsby: Lisa, thank you so much for your time today. It’s always so fantastic to talk to you because one of the takeaways from our event last week was that speaking with you and hearing you speak is such a shot of energy. So I’m excited to carry that with me for the rest of the day, and I hope everyone joining us feels that as well.
Lisa Sun: I highly encourage everyone to go to MyConfidenceLanguage.com and take the quiz. One of my favorite things to do is to send the quiz to all your friends and family because you learn what their superpowers are.
Becca Welsby: Oh, that sounds really fun. Thank you again so much for your time
.Lisa Sun: Thank you.
