Sean Riley:
So with all the fancy introductions out of the way, we're happy to have Jason Young on the podcast. Welcome to the pod, Jason.
Jason Young:
Thank you. Glad to be here.
Sean Riley:
So you are a culture guru, I will say, for the annual meeting this year. Culturetopia-
Jason Young:
Culturetopia-
Sean Riley:
... was the book you wrote and it's a topic that's talked about constantly now particularly with the Great Resignation and a lot of changes that came out of the shutdown through COVID-19 and stuff like that. So I guess to kick this off for people that weren't here or as an extension of it is, I guess, how do you define culture and what defines a good culture?
Jason Young:
Well, culturetopia is just a word I made up. I was looking for a word that, when you did a search for it, you got no hits.
Sean Riley:
Yeah.
Jason Young:
So it's a weird word but it-
Sean Riley:
It's close.
Jason Young:
... suites the topic. Culture, I believe, stems from your value system and so values are going to help shape culture. Culture is really, I believe, is what's going to shape the behavior and ideally foster teamwork and I use the term called relational coordination. It's a way of functioning together. It's a little more deliberate than saying, "I'm on a team." It's more deliberate about how I'm interacting with my boss, my coworkers, my vendors, my suppliers and in this coordinated way. And that's what's going to help to form this freedom.
Because ultimately in culture, the idea would be to try to keep people's tension as low as possible so you can raise performance. How do I create an environment where we have this freedom? And I always tell the joke that I was working with a lady in Austin, Texas and I said, "How many people work here?" She said, "About half," which is one of those things because culturally ... And that's what happened in the last few years. Like you described, it's the Great Resignation and now people do not want to go back into the workforce and that separation can be a culture door unless you're very deliberate about connection.
And I know some people who are, "Oh, they got to be here at least one day a week," or, "You have to be ..." I don't know the answer to that. I've seen some very successful remote employees. I have. And I've probably done, I don't know, 45 Zoom meetings and doing presentations. And it's not my preference. I'd much rather be live but ... And sometimes we just have to make that work. And so the culture, being more deliberate about facilitating those connections, even if it's just a connection via Zoom or via a podcast or whatever it might be.
But I think that's a big part of it, and managing the tension. And if I can keep, like I said, people tension low, my performance or the relational coordination improves and that's what helps to facilitate my opinion or helps facilitate a healthy culture.
Sean Riley:
Yeah. And it's interesting when you said that it was a joke, but I know that's actually even the term now, but the quiet quitting where people aren't quitting literally or just they shut down and don't do exactly what they're supposed to be doing. And I have all these other culture questions but I always find things, once I start talking to someone, that are maybe [inaudible 00:03:31]. How do you go off into this, "I'm going to be the culture guy," and speak about culture? How does that evolve?
Jason Young:
Interesting. After doing a stint as manager of customer service for Los Angeles International Airport, I realized that I did not want to be an airport manager.
Sean Riley:
Not [inaudible 00:03:49].
Jason Young:
I want to be a people developer and so I transferred back into our leadership development center and did some fantastic work around customer service initiatives and leadership development things. But I got at that point where I needed to make a ... I knew I didn't want to go back to airport management. There wasn't really a career path that made sense in the people development because at the time I was there, [inaudible 00:04:12]. Now they have huge learning development teams.
Sean Riley:
Right. You were ahead of your time.
Jason Young:
Yeah, a little bit. And so I left and the first client I had was Hawaiian Airlines and they invited me to come over for one week a month and do customer service training. And I was like, "Oh, I can do this for a living." I was literally just doing training and development and around some of those fundamentals that Southwest is known for: leadership development, supervisor effectiveness, corporate culture. All of these ... And I just began to dabble in that with different companies that were hiring me. I also did some certifications like Myers Briggs and some other things like that, that people would want me to come in and facilitate.
And then I was doing a session in Vegas and a lady named Karen Chaney came up to me afterwards. She goes, "I think you're very entertaining." She goes, "If you could write a book, I could book you as a speaker." And I'm like, "Really?" And I hadn't made that adjustment over to this culture, because I knew I wanted to write about culture [inaudible 00:05:19] because [inaudible 00:05:20] my time at Southwest and Southwest is known for having this great culture.
So then I was thinking, "Okay, I want it to be about culture. What's a word I can come up with?" And then I just began to lay out, okay, who are companies that I think have great cultures and how can I document that and put that all in this [inaudible 00:05:42] that blends in with this whole idea of the Southwest culture? And it's really about just creating an environment where people can do their best work. You want high performance, [inaudible 00:05:52] all in the same space and I think culture is what accomplishes that.
Sean Riley:
Interesting. So it was a mix of an organic thing slash something that you thought this is the path to go. That just sparked my interest as something of I can't imagine you think, "I'm going to be the culture guy one day," but being at a place like Southwest where it's so important, I would understand that that's-
Jason Young:
Well, it's a good door opener, because they still do it well.
Sean Riley:
Right.
Jason Young:
And if you want to have a culture of fun, allow your employees of fun. Some cultures just want to make money. I get that too, but just define it and that way people can model the behavior that's going to help them get results in that area.
Sean Riley:
So I want to go into this, I guess, two ways but how do you get people who are already on board, are on the team or they're working for you that just see it as a paycheck. How do you get them on board to your culture or to more of a collaborative environment?
Jason Young:
Ideally, you want people not just trading hours for dollars and so defining this is Southwest. Not everybody tells jokes.
Sean Riley:
Yeah, exactly.
Jason Young:
And if you're not funny, don't try to be. If you can't sing, don't try to sing your announcements. And so it's just giving people that freedom. But we would lean towards in entertaining our guests or entertaining our customers and do the right thing for our customers, whatever form that takes with that individual personality. Because you don't want everybody to be the same. That would be irritating.
And then there's people that take it too far and they're inappropriate and so there's that balance that, if you have a much more conservative company ... I was doing work with this insurance company. They didn't want to be funny. They wanted to write policies and that's what they ... But we were able to define that. I'll give you another example. I was working with a technology company and they had about 400 engineers. Well, their culture was that if you're at your desk working, that means your job is safe. So they would spend 12 hours of unproductive time but they're logging in. Oh yeah. Because somehow it got out into that group of engineers that they're going to let go the bottom 10%. And that was never the intent.
I talked to the director of that division and he says just they got this culture or idea that, "If I'm at my desk then I'm really busy," and the whole culture became that. But we worked with them and said, okay, we want to look at productivity and not just time spent. And so then they became an over productive culture as opposed to just training hours for dollars.
Sean Riley:
I guess that says it from the aspect of the people that are working there, but you refer to culture almost as the soul of an organization. And the soul of the organization is there and already been established before a lot of people are brought on board and stuff like that. You're in there. How do you change that if you're not one of the people running the company? Or how can you push that change or create that change? And then I guess at the same time, if there is resistance from the top, how do we convince leadership? Or how do leaders adapt if they're not willing to change that soul?
Jason Young:
Again, I think defining upfront what you want that to look like. If you want to have a fun culture, you want to encourage people to do those things. Southwest wanted to have an on-time culture so for every quarter of perfect attendance you have, they give you two tickets so you can give it to anybody. Are you supposed to come to work on time? Yes. But because they wanted to reinforce that on-time culture, they put an incentive in place to do that.
I was working with a car dealership and they just had all these coupons, like a Walmart gift card and they were just rewarding people on the spot and paid people for being on time and for putting in extra effort and they began to see the shift in the way people ... They look forward to come to work, they look forward, hoping that they're getting recognized. And so I think there's a lot of techniques you can use.
But the way I see it is I said just find people doing things right. It's so easy to get critical on our key performance metrics and [inaudible 00:10:42]. Forget that most of the time people are doing things right. We don't go out of our way to recognize that as much as I think we should and I think it makes a big difference on morale. I think it makes a difference on people's willingness to engage. And sometimes people are just having a rough time and that's why you have employees census programs and counseling. And so you want to be able to recognize that too and say, "Hey, how can I help you?" And sometimes people are having a bad day.
Sean Riley:
And I'm not saying it. It's typecast as a ... Manufacturing I'll speak for in general, whether we're packaging and processing, but manufacturing is typically a traditional industry. It's gotten bigger, but it used to be more like family businesses that grew out. But it's ... Stodgy is not the word I want to use, but conservative is a word you used. So that might be a tougher culture to change just because it is an established thing that has worked for decade, after decade, after decade.
So how do you break out of that?
Jason Young:
Well, if you need to break out of it.
Sean Riley:
The employee.
Jason Young:
If you're productive and the operation is running like you want it to run and you have employee retention, there might not be anything-
Sean Riley:
That's a very good point.
Jason Young:
... [inaudible 00:12:12].
Sean Riley:
Mm-hmm.
Jason Young:
If you really want to adjust the environment, I've seen teams that, independent of their boss just say, "Hey, we want to have more fun at work." And so it's a little grassroots effort that happens and sometimes that spreads and sometimes it doesn't. I think just getting agreement, whether it be a department, ideally it would be at the top. There's going to be disagreement on how we want to operate but I've seen people, companies that write these beautiful mission statements and about how they want to treat their employees and about how great it's going to be and then they don't do any of that. And all that does is mistrust and disappointment.
And so I was working with this one company. I said, "You need to take that one off the wall and put one up that says, 'We're bitter, tired and frustrated.'" Because that's what they were. They [inaudible 00:13:11]. And that can just eat at the employee group, I think, in a negative way. It just can bring that morale down. And if you're on a team and you feel like there's no win, there's not an option, there's no way out, though then people are probably going to find a way.
Sean Riley:
Yeah, you said it, taking down that, but I can see people go to an annual meeting or a leadership conference or something like that and they see a culture expert and like you said, on Monday there's a sign put up that says all the things that you're talking about.
Jason Young:
"You're going to be happy no matter what."
Sean Riley:
Exactly. "You're going to smile and this is going to be the greatest place ever. But like you said, if that's not happening, all it's doing is increasing the tension more than it already was. Okay, I guess I'm interested in this and I'm sure it's something or I hope it's something that you've come across to put a button on this, but we're hearing a lot; and I'm not pin-holing any generations; but as the younger workforce is becoming ... the Baby Boomers are moving out and we're getting a younger workforce that just by definition does not do things the way the other generations have.
People can complain about it. People can say that's not the way it should be, and neither here nor there, this is how they do things and do you have tips or tools or ways to integrate that into your culture where that doesn't become ... Because it does. It breeds resentment between the different groups, the different generations. And I don't know, as far as I know maybe this is something that happened 30, 40 years ago with different generations coming. I don't know. It just seems like such a hot button topic versus an opportunity that it should be, that we're bringing in new people, new ideas.
Jason Young:
I think be more creative. I was working with a restaurant company and their average age of their employee is around 17, 18 and they were having trouble getting their people covering their shifts and I didn't think of this idea. I thought it was brilliant though. They [inaudible 00:15:21] assigning a scope of work to a group of servers and they had to decide who's covering that. And they just would text each other. So it took the scheduling and put it in the hands of that, which is what they want. [inaudible 00:15:34].
Sean Riley:
Right. I was going to say and they probably appreciated it being-
Jason Young:
"Hey, Sean, can you cover me for the next two hours?" "Sure." It didn't force them to have to work this set shift or ... and they were so much more satisfied with the way that they were being scheduled and the way communication was happening. Start text things instead of calling all the time.
My son, he's 17. If I want to get an answer, I text him.
Sean Riley:
Yeah.
Jason Young:
And I know the phone is glued to his hand, so I know he can answer.
Sean Riley:
No, they don't know how that function works.
Jason Young:
Text him and get the information I need.
Sean Riley:
Right.
Jason Young:
And well, I possess this preferred method of communication. So I think we have to give up the old point of view and start really taking a different viewing point in the way we're communicating, the way we're recognizing and rewarding or even promoting. Some people, they don't want to promote or if they're ... promote, they leave one and go to another unit every two years or every one year. They're moving up or going somewhere else.
Sean Riley:
Right.
Jason Young:
I'd like to look into that whole retention thing. How do we retain? And sometimes it's a retention bonus. [inaudible 00:16:52] 18 months, you're going to get $500 or you're going to get whatever it might be. And I think those things work, but ultimately, first of all I don't think people quit companies. I think they quit supervisors.
Sean Riley:
That's an interesting way of putting it, yes.
Jason Young:
And if you're not happy and satisfied with the person that you're reporting to or you don't feel like you're getting adequate communication, I just don't think you're going to have a lot of help in retaining those employees unless we start to understand the employee and what do they need. What would they like to see in terms of how we communicate and how we schedule and how we-
Sean Riley:
Yeah, it's interesting. I was talking to the person that ... Emma, that's the person. Emma who is producing this podcast for us in the background and we were discussing just how it's changed even ... At least I've seen this in the last 10, 15 years where everyone isn't going to the office 09:00 to 05:00. Some are going 07:30 to 03:30. Some are going 10:00 to 06:00. And I don't feel like the world stopped spinning. I don't feel like there's [inaudible 00:17:55]. And that doesn't seem like that big of a deal but yet it seems to me that the younger generation seems to appreciate coming in earlier. I don't, but it seems to work.
Jason Young:
And there's a lot of ... even at Southwest. They just got completely flexible with everybody. You want to work four 10 hour days? Great. You want to work 6:00 to whatever? Great.
Sean Riley:
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Jason Young:
You want to come in later and work until ... As long as you aren't an operational ... If you're a dispatcher you need to be [inaudible 00:18:30].
Sean Riley:
Yeah. If you're flying the plane.
Jason Young:
If you're a mechanic you need to be there overnight so you can do the C Check. But if I'm an administrative assistant and I want to work four 10 hour days and be off Friday or Monday or whenever-
Sean Riley:
[inaudible 00:18:44].
Jason Young:
... why not? As long as I get the same production. And the same thing I think is with working remotely. I know that some people are just putting a hard stop saying, "Nope, you're coming back in the office, period." But you can think about it. I don't have to have childcare, I don't have to have a pet sitter. I don't have to do ... I mean, [inaudible 00:19:07].
Sean Riley:
Waste an hour driving.
Jason Young:
Yeah. An hour each way. And plus if I want to load the dishwasher on my lunch break, I can. As long as I'm being productive, I do think it's good to have connection.
Sean Riley:
Right.
Jason Young:
And whether that's a quarterly thing or hopefully more often that, maybe a monthly thing where I ... But I know people that they just don't want to have to carry their computer back-and-forth and they don't want to have to ... Okay, then don't require that. Just have an office day where you're just connecting with your coworkers or whatever it might be. So I think it's going to be a continual shift and I think as more new people come into the workforce it's going to continue to shift.
But I just think if we can celebrate that and not make it problematic then, okay, if that's how you want it and that's what you want to do, then we can make it work.
Sean Riley:
Yeah. It seems to me like it's never looked at as an opportunity. It's always looked at as butting heads versus let's look at this from a different point of view and maybe they're onto something.
Jason Young:
Starbucks, if you work 20 hours, you get benefits. A lot of people want to work there for that reason. If there's five stores around you, you can pick up shifts at different stores. They make it so easy to want to work there and I think they put a pretty good cultural wrap on that too. I think they treat people fairly and if they don't, then they close other stores or they have training around their [inaudible 00:20:39]. So I think more ... I don't know if more progressive is the right word but-
Sean Riley:
Yeah, but I understand what you're saying.
Jason Young:
Just being a little more-
Sean Riley:
Open-minded.
Jason Young:
... open-minded. A little more maybe progressive. And then listen. You tell me, what do you want? What do you need? How do we make this work for you, the employee? And listen to the customer. Is this working for a customer? Because ultimately we got to shape our values and create our values so that they are shaping that culture and that should be, I think, very customer-centric but there's two customers: The external customers and the internal customers. And if you don't take care of the internal customers, they're not going to take care of [inaudible 00:21:25].
Sean Riley:
Right.
Jason Young:
I truly believe in that. But I think it's going to look different and I think it's going to continue to look different. As a matter of fact, I'm trying to put my brain around, hey, what's next to this? Doing some think tanks with ... There's actually a group in Texas called the Culture Think Tank and I recently affiliated with them and we just have these incredible discussions about what is going on? How do we measure productivity? How do we measure anxiety? How do we measure all these different things?
And it's really interesting when you start looking at what's causing the frustration, or what's causing the anxiety, and what can we do about that? And I think there's going to be some interesting work that comes out of ... There's a group of us that have come together and they call it the Culture Think Tank and it's fun to be a part of it.
Sean Riley:
I bet. That sounds good and I'd love to ... We'll have to have you back on when you guys have-
Jason Young:
[inaudible 00:22:24].
Sean Riley:
... solved all these problems so that we can be the ones to share it, because I am as fascinated with it as you are just to see how ... Like you said, people have to adapt. It's got to be a flexible type thing versus a, "This is the way we've always done it."
Jason Young:
Oh, there's some really interesting and smart people in that group and you might want to interview them as well because they're a really talented group.
Sean Riley:
Sounds great. Jason, I can't thank you enough for coming on here and adding another 20 minutes or so to you day-
Jason Young:
Yeah.
Sean Riley:
... after thinking up there.
Jason Young:
It's my pleasure.
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